TJHC hearing room updates

Wednesday 16 December 2015 - Day 17

Day 17, the final day of the Royal Commission’s public hearing into allegations of child sex abuse by clergy and religious in Victoria's Ballarat Diocese, continued today with Fr John Walshe returning to the witness box to give evidence about a statement dealing with a phone call between the then Bishop Pell and David Ridsdale in 1993.

The Commission has heard that in the call David Ridsdale reported to Bishop Pell that he had been sexually abused by his uncle, Gerald Ridsdale.

In the statement Fr Walshe said his recollection following the call was that Bishop Pell was upset, that he felt worried about David and that he was concerned for David who had been ‘terribly affected by the abuse’.

Fr Walshe was again questioned extensively about his statement including how it was developed, its timing, how he came to provide the statement and who it was provided to.

Council Assisting the Commission Angus Stewart referred to a number of documents tendered to the Commission following the issuing of a subpoena for documents related to the development of the statement.

Angus Stewart put to Fr Walshe that he ‘fabricated’ the facts in his statement to assist ‘your good friend, George Pell’. Fr Walshe said he ‘absolutely denied this’.

Fr Walshe went on to be asked about a range of issues within the Church including celibacy, married priests and women priests.

At the conclusion of Fr Walshe’s evidence Ann Ryan, who was a teacher at St Colman’s Primary School in Mortlake in the early 1980s when Gerald Ridsdale was the Parish Priest read a statement to the Commission.

She told the Commission about the concerns she had with Ridsdale and his behavior with young boys and reports she had received from parents about their children who had been abused by Ridsdale.

She wrote many further letters to Bishop Mulkearns about a range of different concerns particularly the inaction of the Church to assist victims, but was unable to get a satisfactory response from Bishop Mulkearns.

She told the Commission that her position in the school was threatened because of her advocacy on behalf of victims of Ridsdale and others.

The hearing was adjourned until a directions hearing on 5 February 2016 in Sydney ahead of the third Ballarat hearing on 22 February 2016.

Tuesday 15 December 2015 - Day 16

Day 16 of the Royal Commission’s public hearing into allegations of child sex abuse by clergy and religious in Victoria's Ballarat Diocese commenced today with Fr John McKinnon continuing his evidence to the Commission.

Fr McKinnon gave evidence to the Commission about Paul David Ryan and sexual abuse complaints that had been made against him.

He also gave evidence about a consultor’s meeting minute which records that Ryan would not be available for diocesan placement in 1993. He told the Commission that while the details of this decision might not have been discussed in the meeting the consultors should have asked more questions.

Fr McKinnon said that over the past year or two he has been visiting Bishop Mulkearns. He told the Commission Bishop Mulkearns’ memory is worse than his and that while the Bishop has no recall of specific details of his handling of offending priests ‘these things are on his mind’ and that he is profoundly sorry for not having dealt with them appropriately.

Fr John Walshe, the current parish priest of Mentone Parkdale in Melbourne, gave a statement to the Commission earlier in this hearing about being with the then auxiliary bishop Pell in Mentone in 1993 when David Ridsdale called to report to Bishop Pell that he had been abused by his uncle, Gerald Ridsdale.

In the statement Fr Walshe said his recollection was that Bishop Pell was upset, that he felt worried about David and that he was concerned for David who had been ‘terribly affected by the abuse’.

Fr Walshe was questioned extensively about his statement including how it was developed, its timing, how he came to provide the statement and who it was provided to. The Commission has issued a subpoena for documents related to the development of the statement.

Fr Walshe told the Commission he had met with Cardinal Pell in November last year while on holidays and that Cardinal Pell’s planned appearance at the Royal Commission was ‘weighing on him’ and that his health had declined.

Fr Lawrence O’Toole was questioned about a visit he had made to a man in hospital. The man had been sexually assaulted as a boy by Ridsdale. Fr O’Toole was questioned heavily about why he had not reported the abuse to the police.

Fr Daniel Arundell was assistant parish priest in Mildura from 1963 to May 1968 while John Day was the parish priest. He was also in Mildura at the same time as Ridsdale was an assistant priest for two years from 1964 to 1966.

He told the Commission that he had heard nothing at the time about any offending by Day and Ridsdale.

As one of Bishop Mulkearns’ consultors Fr Arundell was taken to the minutes of a number of consultor meetings in which decisions were made about the movements of Ridsdale and others. He said he had no recollection of discussions that took place at the meetings.

Mr BPD gave evidence about being abused by Paul David Ryan in 1985 as a 17 year-old.  In around 1993 he decided to join the priesthood and while meeting with another priest in Ararat about his vocation Ryan walked into the room.

Within a month of seeing Ryan Mr BPD had decided not to join the priesthood and had met with Bishop Mulkearns to tell him about being abused by Ryan. Mr BPD told the Commission that Bishop Mulkearns said that he would deal with it and that there was no need to go to the police. Mr BPD never heard from Bishop Mulkearns as to how it was dealt with.

The hearing continues on Wednesday.

Monday 14 December 2015 - Day 15

Day 15 of the Royal Commission’s public hearing into allegations of child sex abuse by clergy and religious in Victoria's Ballarat Diocese commenced today with Bishop Brian Finnigan finalising his evidence to the Commission.

He was asked some further questions from lawyers representing abuse survivors about his knowledge of the movement of priests in the Ballarat Diocese while secretary and member of Bishop Mulkearns’ Consultors Committee from 1979 to 1997.

It was put to Bishop Finnigan that evidence he had given about his knowledge of Ridsdale’s offending against children was different from the evidence he had previously given the Commission in a private hearing.

Counsel Assisting the Commission put it to Bishop Finnigan that he had not given evidence in a way that had assisted the Commission and that it lacked compassion and had not been candid.

It was put to Bishop Finnigan that he had constantly distanced himself from any knowledge of child sexual abuse by priests to protect himself and the Church. Bishop Finnigan said he disagreed with this assessment.

Bishop Finnigan told the Commission that the Church needs to be more thorough in assessing candidates for ministry, that a more urgent approach needs to be taken in dealing with accusations and that a priest proven to have abused a child should be immediately removed from ministry.

Fr Brian McDermott was parish secretary to Bishop Mulkearns from 1985 to 1990 in Ballarat.

He gave evidence about a meeting of priests in 1980 about Gerald Ridsdale and the problems that people were having with him in Mortlake. He told the Commission that he had been unaware of a boy living with Ridsdale in the presbytery in Mortlake until recently.

Fr McDermott was taken to a letter written by Mrs BAE to Bishop Mulkearns after she had met with Fr McDermott in Melbourne about Ridsdale abusing her son BAF. In the letter she asked that Ridsdale be removed from all contact with boy.

Fr McDermott told the Commission that while some financial assistance might have been given to Mrs BAE Ridsdale was not moved from Horsham immediately.

When put to Fr McDermott that his actions had been inadequate he responded that ‘at this stage, perhaps naively, I still had confidence that the authorities would take proper action’.

Fr John McKinnon, a member of Bishop Mulkearns’ College of Consultors, told the Commission that he recalled the consultors meetings ‘going round and round’ often without an agenda.

He told the Commission  that while he was part of a program in the  early 1980s designed to help improve the emotional maturity of priests issues of child sexual abuse were ‘pushed under the carpet’ and that he didn’t think ‘the clerical culture has moved’ much.

‘I think how on earth are we going to change the culture? I think the church would never have done a Royal Commission on itself…we need people from outside looking in… it’s so hard when you’re part of a culture to recognize what it is like. I think we need help…help that’s hard for us to face.’

He said he had never discussed Ridsdale with Mulkearns: ‘we didn’t get together much and talk about what’s going on or what the vision was…’

He also gave evidence about celibacy and the impact it could possibly have on a priest being able to develop an understanding of the sensitivity and sacredness of children.

He said he thought there is a big overlap between the issues of child sexual abuse within the Church and the issues of church culture and Catholic attitudes to sexuality.

Like many of the priests who have given evidence in this part of the Ballarat hearing Fr McKinnon was taken to the minutes of a number of consultors meetings and other documents in which the behavior and movement of offending priests, including Ridsdale, Ryan and Day were discussed.

Fr McKinnon said he had little or no recollection of the meetings

The hearing continues on Tuesday.

Friday 11 December 2015 - Day 14

Day 14 of the Royal Commission’s public hearing into allegations of child sex abuse by clergy and religious in Victoria's Ballarat Diocese commenced today with Bishop Brian Finnigan giving evidence about his time in Ballarat as Bishop Mulkearn’s secretary and member of his Consultors Committee from 1979 to 1997.

Bishop Finnigan was asked about decisions made in consultors meetings to move Gerald Ridsdale, Paul David Ryan and Father BPB. He was asked about his knowledge of their inappropriate behaviour with children and child sexual abuse.

He gave evidence about a call he received from the mother of a boy who told him they were worried about the safety of their son. She told Bishop Finnigan she wanted to meet with the Bishop.

He told the Commission that he might not have passed the request or information onto the Bishop and understood ‘they would follow it up with the Bishop’.

He was also asked about a meeting with three or four people who came to him to raise concerns with Ridsdale having ‘all these lads around to his place to play pool…and they felt he was over friendly with him’.

He said that he didn’t understand at the time the concerns being raised but that he told Ridsdale the Bishop wanted him to call him. Bishop Finnigan said Ridsdale responded that he thought he was doing well.

Bishop Finnigan also gave evidence about Paul David Ryan, the reasons for Ryan’s move to the US and what was known about his behavior with children prior to the move.

Towards the end of the day Counsel for Cardinal Pell made an application to the Commission that the Cardinal be given permission to give evidence to the Commission via video link from Rome.

The Commission heard that due to health issues the Cardinal would not be able to attend the hearing next week in Melbourne in person and requested he be able to give evidence by video link from Rome.

Counsel for Cardinal Pell, Allan Myers, QC told the Commission the Cardinal ‘deeply regrets’ not being able to travel to Australia to appear before the Commission and that he ‘has been preparing himself for this journey for some time…’

The Commission heard Cardinal Pell was booked on an airplane to arrive in Australia on Sunday morning.

Justice McClellan said that given the complexity of the issues involved ‘and the fact that there are two case studies presently before the Commission covering an extensive period of time, coupled with the technical difficulties in Rome of the previous video evidence when the Cardinal was in Rome, it is preferable that his evidence be given in person in Australia’.

The Commission has determined to delay the Cardinal’s evidence until it returns to Ballarat in February next year for the third part of this public hearing in the hope the Cardinal will be well enough to travel to Australia.

The hearing continues on Monday.

Thursday 10 December 2015 - Day 13

Day 13 of the Royal Commission’s public hearing into allegations of child sex abuse by clergy and religious in Victoria's Ballarat Diocese commenced today with Fr Eric Bryant continuing to give evidence.

Fr Bryant gave evidence about a priest whom the Royal Commission has given the pseudonym BPB. BPB became an assistant priest with Fr Byrant. Fr Bryant said he thought Bishop Mulkearns was assigning BPB to him because BPB might have had a nervous breakdown. Fr Bryant gave evidence that he had not been told BPB had had previous complaints of offending against children made against him.

Fr Bryant told the Commission he received a complaint about BPB’s conduct from a teacher who had been told by a parent who lived in BPBs previous parish.

He told the Commission that after receiving the complaint he met with school staff and the principal to put in place management procedures for BPB including that BPB not be on the school premises by himself.

He also said he spoke to BPB and told him that he did not want ‘him being anywhere near children or alone with children’.

Fr Bryant told the Commission a further complaint was made to him and that he had taken his concerns to the Bishop’s office and that he, the school principal and the parish ‘were put under extreme pressure, rather unjustly, because…we weren’t informed of what had happened in the previous parish’.

Fr Bryant told the Commission that when he was told in his first consultors meeting in 1982 that Gerald Ridsdale was a homosexual he in no way concluded that Ridsdale had been interfering with children.

He also told the Commission he was ‘positive’ the use of the term ‘homosexual’ in consultors meetings up to at least 1986 was not a shorthand way of referring to persons against whom allegations of abuse against children had been made.

Fr Bryant gave evidence that he only became aware Ridsdale was an offender against children after Fr Bryant finished being a consultor.

Asked by Commissioner Murray if he had seen any changes over the years about how priests ensured the safety of children, Fr Bryant told the Commission that there are now protocols and approaches in place relating to contact with children, including with altar servers.

He told the Commission that he believed there were still a number of ‘older priests’ who were ‘still in denial about the pedophilia thing’.

Monsignor Glynn Murphy attended Bishop Mulkearns’ consultors’ meetings as the bishop’s secretary and was chair of the Special Issues Committee which the bishop set up in 1993 to advise him in relation to sexual abuse complaints against clergy and to advise on ways of assisting, in particular, Ridsdale’s victims.

The Commission heard from Mons Murphy that the Special Issues Committee was made up of a retired magistrate, a general practitioner, a woman, a police officer and a priest with clinical psychology qualifications.

Mons Murphy was questioned about the way in which BPB had been dealt with and his knowledge of BPB’s offending against children, and about consultors’ decisions concerning the movements of Paul David Ryan against whom allegations had been made of inappropriate behaviour with a child.

Mons Murphy told the Commission that the only advice he would have given the bishop about priests ‘with any questions marks over them’ would have been that they ‘be removed immediately and indefinitely pending any investigation’.

He said that under the code of canon law there is no restriction on bishops or others reporting child sexual abuse to the police.

Mons Murphy was asked a number of questions about the way in which the diocese approached civil claims against the diocese in relation to child sexual abuse.

He told the Commission the ‘default’ position of the diocese and the Church more broadly at the time was that it would vigorously defend the claims.

Asked about the workings of the Special Issues Committee, he told the Commission that three or four cases of historical child sexual abuse were dealt with by the committee and that these cases were, in accordance with the protocol setting up the committee, reported by the bishop to the police.

The hearing continues on Friday.

Wednesday 9 December 2015 - Day 12

Day 12 of the Royal Commission’s public hearing into allegations of child sex abuse by clergy and religious in Victoria's Ballarat Diocese started hearing evidence from Fr Frank Madden who retired in 2011. He gave evidence via video link from Warrnambool.

Fr Madden was Ballarat vicar general from May 1971 to April 1976 and a member of Bishop Mulkearn’s consultor committee. He was also a consultor from 1979 to 1982.

Fr Madden told the commission the role of the consultor was to advise the bishop on matters brought before them. ‘The advice consultors gave the bishop regarding appointments was fairly limited,’ he told the Commission.

Generally Bishop Mulkearns would ‘bring in a list of appointments he thought appropriate… the general thrust would have been that those would have been accepted…without a great deal of discussion’.

He told the Commission he had no role in issues associated with priests’ misbehavior and that the only reason he was given the vicar general role was that he was ‘in the wrong place at the wrong time’.

Fr Madden said the first time he became aware of allegations of abuse against Monsignor Day was after two policemen came to see Bishop Mulkearns.

Fr Madden was taken to the minutes of a consultors meeting shortly after the police had seen Bishop Mulkearns in which Monsignor Day was granted leave. He told the Commission he had no recollection of any discussion about this decision being made.

He also said he had no recollection of discussions in the consultors meetings with Bishop Mulkearns to send Day to Timboon.

Fr Madden was asked about a number of consultors meetings in which Ridsdale was discussed including his moves to various parishes and other places. Fr Madden told the Commission he had no recollection of the discussions.

Fr Madden was asked about the account of BWE who earlier this week told the Commission that he overheard a conversation between Fr Madden and the then Fr Pell in which it is alleged Fr Pell was aware at the time that Ridsdale was abusing children.

The conversation, according to BWE, was in the sacristy before a requiem mass in September 1983. Fr Madden told the Commission he had not celebrated a requiem mass at the cathedral after he left the cathedral parish for Horsham in June 1982 and that he was confident he had never con-celebrated a funeral mass with George Pell.

Fr Madden was asked about the appointment of Ridsdale as his assistant parish priest in Horsham in July 1986. He told the Commission Ridsdale revealed in April 1988 that he was moving from Horsham because ‘his past had caught up with him’, that he had been offending against boys, that the police were investigating and that he would go to jail. Fr Madden told the Commission this was the first time he became aware of Ridsdale’s offending.

He told the Commission he could not ‘escape some responsibility for his role in not questioning some of the moves; I understand that in retrospect, as being part of the College of Consultors and as vicar-general I have to take some responsibility and I regret that’.

Fr Madden was also asked about Paul David Ryan who four people had made claims of child sexual abuse against while he was in Ballarat North, Penshurst and Ararat parishes.

After lunch Fr Eric Bryant, parish priest of Stawell gave evidence that Bishop Mulkearns had come to a consultors meeting in September 1982 and said ‘there is a problem with homosexuality in the diocese’ and then referred to Ridsdale. Fr Bryant said he didn’t know what the Bishop had meant by the comment and that there was no discussion of it in the meeting or after.

Asked by Commissioner McClellan why he thought the diocese had handled Ridsdale and other allegations so poorly he said: “I don’t think anyone knew how to handle the situation from the bishop down. And I think the diocese took a great dive at that stage and sort of ended up in the dark ages’.

…the church, like a lot of male institutions are places for people to hide…’.

The hearing continues on Thursday.

Tuesday 8 December 2015 - Day 11

The Royal Commission’s public hearing into allegations of child sex abuse by clergy and religious in Victoria's Ballarat Diocese continued today in the Melbourne County Court.

The Commission’s first witness for the day, BWF, gave evidence via video from a correctional facility about physical and sexual abuse at St Patrick’s College in Ballarat as a 14 year old boarder in 1973.

He told the Commission Br Dowlan appeared to be sexually abusing other boys in the dormitory at night and that Dowlan had molested his brother (BWG). BWF also told the Commission Dowlan abused him in the shower room.

BWF said that sometime during that same week he went to the presbytery seeking the then Fr Pell who he described as a ‘well-known and influential priest in the area’.

BWF told the commission:

Because I was so nervous I just blurted out to Pell that Dowlan had beaten and molested BWG and demanded to know what Pell was going to do about it. Pell became angry and yelled at me ‘young man how dare you knock on this door and make demands’.

BWF said that shortly after this Br Dowlan and another brother came to his parents’ home and he believed they gave his parents a cheque. He said that within a year his parents had purchased a farm that, as a poor family, they would never have been able to afford.

Sam Duggan, lawyer for Cardinal Pell, showed BWF a letter in which BWF set out details of the alleged conversation with George Pell including the location of the presbytery where he claimed to have spoken with George Pell.

It was put to BWF that Fr Pell wasn’t living at the presbytery BWF identified and that the confrontation never took place. BWF rejected this.

Mr Duggan showed BWF a police statement regarding the abuse of his brother, BWG, in which BWG described the incident in 1973 that caused BWF to confront George Pell.

In the statement BWG said he never told anyone about the sexual abuse by Dowlan prior to 1993. Mr Duggan put to BWF that he could therefore not have known about the abuse when he said he went to confront Fr Pell. BWF said ‘He didn’t have to’.

The Commission heard from Mr Denis Ryan, a former police detective, stationed in Mildura about a 1971 investigation he undertook into Day involving up to eight victims.

Mr Ryan gave evidence to the commission about:

• The close relationship between Mildura detectives and Fr John Day;
• an investigation he initiated into Fr Day that involved the abuse of up to eight Mildura students which went nowhere and Mr Ryan was ordered off by senior police detectives;
• Day, as financial manager of the local primary school, receiving the pay of a teacher at the school who did not exist;
• a Mildura police officer extorting money from alleged offenders that was paid to the Church;
• a letter written by him and a school principal to Bishop Mulkearns detailing the investigation into Day. Bishop Mulkearns responded to the letter saying the police had cleared Day of any charges.

In 1972, after unsuccessfully trying to pursue Day, Mr Ryan resigned from the police force. In his resignation letter he wrote:

I can only hope that any member of the police force, who in the future performs a similar type of inquiry that I performed in relation to Monsignor Day, does not suffer the same fate that I have suffered.

In his statement to the Commission, Mr Ryan said:

Hardly a day goes by that I don’t think of the police force and what they did to the kids who were the victims of Monsignor Day. Those children were being mentally and physically destroyed by Day and the police protected him. Bishop Mulkearns also protected him.

After Day’s death 15 people made claims of child sexual abuse against him. Nine received payments from the Church.

In a letter written in 2006, Christine Nixon former Victorian chief commissioner of police said ‘I am completely satisfied with the investigation into Day’.

Mr Mick Miller, former chief commissioner, Victorian Police gave evidence about his knowledge of the Day investigation when he was assistant commissioner (Operations) from 1971 to 1976. Mr Miller had day-to-day responsibilities for the performance of detectives in regional Victoria at the time.

He told the Commission that while in the Victorian Police he had heard stories about Catholic police being ‘let off by Victorian Police in investigations not related to child sexual abuse’.

He told the Commission that the then Victorian Police chief commissioner Reg Jackson was ‘the architect of the Victorian Police’s response to Denis Ryan’s investigation into Monsignor Day’.

As a former commissioner of police Mr Miller apologised to Ryan for the ordeal he had suffered at the hands of senior officers of the police. He expressed his belief that Ryan should be compensated for what he had gone through.

After lunch retired priest, Fr William Melican, who served as an assistant priest to Day up to January 1971, gave evidence. Fr Melican was appointed to the Committee of Consultors shortly after Ronald Mulkearns became the Bishop of Ballarat. The role of the consultors was to provide advice to the bishop.

Fr Melican was asked about his knowledge of Day’s abuse in Mildura and when he became aware of it. Fr Melican said he did not know about it at the time and that he could not recall when he found out.

He said he didn’t know anything about Day’s resignation in January 1972 and that it was not unusual for a senior priest to resign and travel overseas.

Fr Melican was shown a minute from a meeting of consultors in January 1973 in which it was agreed Day be appointed parish priest of Timboon. He told the Commission he could not recall anyone objecting to the appointment.

Fr Melican was shown the transcript of an interview with Gerald Ridsdale in June 1994 in which Ridsdale talked about leaving Apollo Bay in 1975 after becoming aware of rumors that he was abusing children. Fr Melican said he had no recollection of why Ridsdale was moved from Apollo Bay and later that year, Inglewood. He was also asked about a number of other Ridsdale moves.

Fr Melican was taken to a number of consultor meeting minutes in which Paul David Ryan was dealt with. Fr Milican answered in general that he had no particular knowledge of Paul David Ryan and his movements.

He told the Commission he hardly knew, met or spoke to Ryan. ‘I’m not sure I liked him and whatever my duty towards him was I did it as best I could and then that was it, that was the finish of my interest’.

The hearing continues on Wednesday.

Monday 7 December 2015 - Day 10

The second stage of the Royal Commission’s Case Study 28 public hearing into child sex abuse by clergy and religious in Victoria's Ballarat Diocese resumed today in the Melbourne County Court.

The first stage of the hearing, held in Ballarat in May 2015, heard evidence from 17 survivor witnesses and representatives from the Ballarat Diocese including Bishop Paul Bird.

Counsel Assisting the Commission, Gail Furness, told the Commission the second part of the hearing would hear evidence from nine current and former priests in the Ballarat Diocese who were advisors to Bishop Mulkearns.

She said the hearing would focus on the knowledge of these priests and the response of the diocese in relation to four offending priests, John Day, Gerald Ridsdale, Paul David Ryan and another unnamed priest.

She told the Commission that between 1980 and February 2015, 140 people had made a claim of child sexual abuse against priests and religious within the Diocese. This does not include claims relating to the Christian Brothers.

The Diocese has paid nearly $5 million in compensation, treatment, legal and counseling costs as a result of 86 claims.

The first witness to give evidence was nephew of Gerald Ridsdale, David Ridsdale, who was recalled to be cross examined by lawyers representing Cardinal Pell.

Mr Ridsdale gave evidence about a phone call in February 1993 in which he told the then Bishop Pell he had been abused by his uncle, Gerald Ridsdale.

Mr Ridsdale asserted that in the phone call George Pell asked him what it would take to keep him quite.

He also gave evidence responding to a statement to the Commission from Fr Walshe who was living with George Pell in Mentone when Mr Ridsdale made the call.

In the statement Fr Walshe says his recollection was that George Pell was upset, that he felt worried about David and that he was concerned for David who had been ‘terribly affected by the abuse’.

Counsel for Cardinal Pell suggested to Mr Ridsdale that at the time of the phone call he was having housing and financial difficulties and that George Pell was simply offering help. Mr Ridsdale rejected this.

Counsel for Cardinal Pell asked Mr Ridsdale if he was aware that prior to the phone call it was known Ridsdale was under investigation by the police and that it would be ‘pointless for George Pell to offer any bribe...’. Mr Ridsdale said ‘I have never said that he bribed me: I believe I’ve been clear on that’.

Mr Timothy Green was recalled to give further evidence about a conversation he alleges he had as a 12-year old with Bishop Pell at a swimming pool in Ballarat in which he told George Pell about abuse at St Patrick’s College in Ballarat.

In Mr Green’s statement he says George Pell said ‘don’t be so ridiculous’ and that he dismissed the allegations.

In his statement Mr Green says two other boys were with him in the change rooms when he had the conversation. In a statement from one of the boys named by Mr Green, BWF, as being present, BWF says he has no recollection of the conversation.

After lunch BWE, a retired soldier, gave evidence about a conversation he claims to have overheard in the sacristy of the Ballarat Cathedral between Fr Pell and Fr Frank Madden when BWE was an altar boy at a funeral mass in September 1983.

BWE told the Commission:

After they had exchanged pleasantries Fr Madden said ‘how’s things down your way?’ or words to that effect. George Pell responded by saying ‘…I think Gerry’s been rooting boys again’.

Counsel for Cardinal Pell took BWK to a list of funerals that occurred in the Cathedral in 1983 saying the then Fr Pell had not said a requiem mass in the Ballarat Cathedral in that year. The Commission also heard Ridsdale was in Maroubra, Sydney in NSW in 1983.

Another altar boy who BWK says served on the alter the day of the funeral mass has given a statement to the Commission saying he has no recollection of the conversation between Frs Pell and Madden, of the funeral or of ever serving as an altar boy with BWK.

Mr BWA, another survivor witness, told the Commission about being abused by Ridsdale as a 14 and 15 year old while an altar boy at St Joseph’s Church, Warrnambool.

He told the Commission he went from being an A-grade student to someone that his father wanted to ‘kick out’ of the house.

He said he told Fr Tom Brophy, now deceased, that Ridsdale had abused him and that he could ‘give him a dozen other names…’. The Commission heard Fr Brophy had gone straight to Bishop Mulkearns within days to report the abuse.

Paul Geoffrey Levey told the Commission he was first abused by Ridsdale as a nine year old on a camping trip in 1980.

In 1982, after the breakdown of Mr Levey’s parents’ marriage, he moved into the presbytery at Mortlake with Ridsdale where he was regularly abused.

Mr Levey reported the abuse to police in 1990. He told the Commission Ridsdale still haunts him. ‘The abuse has impacted my relationships and my kids have had a hard time. They have seen my best and my worst.  I have made multiple suicide attempts’.

Beverley Anne Levey, Paul Levey’s mother, gave evidence about Ridsdale’s relationship with her family.

She said she had called Bishop Mulkearns and asked him how he could let a child live in the presbytery with a priest. She said she told the Bishop she would get the police involved and Paul soon after moved from the presbytery.

She said her family was ‘broken because of what had happened…it has been hell to live with the knowledge that Paul was abused by Gerry. I continue to feel guilty and blame myself for not having my eyes open at the time of the abuse’.

The hearing continues on Tuesday.